Eclipse Over-Hyped; Developers Suffer
Swarms of vendors are clambering onto the Eclipse hype-wagon, hoping to surf a tsunami wave of plug-in profits. Where does that leave Java developers? Does anyone actually believe Borland, who basically admitted defeat in the Java IDE world, is going to bring anything innovative to the table -- let alone give it away for free as open source?
More and more I see Eclipse as two entirely separate things: Eclipse the IDE, and Eclipse the plug-in platform. Developers see Eclipse as an alternative Java IDE which is free and open. Vendors see Eclipse as a platform for their plug-ins, which are not free and not open. That's quite a different perspective, and you can feel the difference in the hype of today versus the buzz of last year.
Last year the buzz was about Eclipse finally gaining independence from IBM, becoming non-profit, and forging ahead with its free and open-source vision. This year, the marketing hype almost reminds me of the pre-bust "New Economy" buzzwords of not too long ago. "Strategic partners", "ecosystems", and no doubt "lasers".
Lots of people assume that the hype involving the plug-in platform will automatically translate into more-useful plug-ins for the IDE, but they forget that these shiny proprietary plug-ins will not be free or open source, and they're not going to be integrated with the other vendors' proprietary plug-ins. In a worst-case scenario, you would end up with the worst of both worlds: Expensive tools that don't work well together. Who would want that?
So, when you read the next news release, or quotes from some big-wig in some industry trade rag, prick up your ears, but pay attention to what they're saying behind what they're saying. It's all about money, my friends, and anyone who tells you different is selling you something. (I'm selling you something too, but I'll get to that later. And at least I'm up front about it! ;-)
Here's an example of what I mean. This so-called article (News.com) touts Eclipse as "the center of innovation in the Java tools industry", and one VP, who shall remain nameless to avoid embarrassment, said "'It's over,' ... referring to competition in the Java tools industry." Umm, excuse me, we're the competition and it's not over.
An interesting discussion arose over the article at Javalobby. Graham Lea comments, "Firstly, would anyone really say something is a 'center of innovation in the Java tools industry' without being paid to say it, or at the very least given a script? ... Secondly, what's all this hullabaloo about a 'platform'? I want to cut code fast and easily and I don't really care if the IDE is built on a flexible platform or not - it makes no difference to my use of the IDE."
The News.com article goes on to glorify the Eclipse members and all but bad-mouth Sun (who is not an Eclipse member). This is not about developers at all, this is a PR war. Who's behind it? Tim Boudreau, a developer of Sun's NetBeans, has his theory, and writes "A good rule of thumb for this sort of thing might be, never believe anything you read about developer tools that isn't written by someone who develops software for a living."
And that's what it all boils down to: Developers. Hype doesn't help developers write code. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Eclipse is all hype. I'm saying that at the end of the day, developers need the best IDE for the job, regardless of the hype. Eclipse, as a plug-in platform, is a great opportunity for vendors, but it's not an IDE. Eclipse, the free and open Java IDE, still lags behind IntelliJ IDEA and will probably continue to do so, in my opinion. Eclipse tries to be everything for everybody. IDEA only tries to be the best, most intelligent, most usable Java/J2EE IDE. Anyone who's a professional Java developer, serious about productivity, should try both IDEA and Eclipse and choose the best IDE for the job (and of course, personal preference).
Finally, to put this hype in perspective once and for all, Graham Lea again writes, "the current form of IDEs exists only because of the paradigm shift IDEA started about 4 years ago. It's only a matter of time before someone releases something that blows our minds again, and then Eclipse will just be the free old-school editor that only that 30-something guy in the corner uses (ala. emacs today)."
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains, Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
More and more I see Eclipse as two entirely separate things: Eclipse the IDE, and Eclipse the plug-in platform. Developers see Eclipse as an alternative Java IDE which is free and open. Vendors see Eclipse as a platform for their plug-ins, which are not free and not open. That's quite a different perspective, and you can feel the difference in the hype of today versus the buzz of last year.
Last year the buzz was about Eclipse finally gaining independence from IBM, becoming non-profit, and forging ahead with its free and open-source vision. This year, the marketing hype almost reminds me of the pre-bust "New Economy" buzzwords of not too long ago. "Strategic partners", "ecosystems", and no doubt "lasers".
Lots of people assume that the hype involving the plug-in platform will automatically translate into more-useful plug-ins for the IDE, but they forget that these shiny proprietary plug-ins will not be free or open source, and they're not going to be integrated with the other vendors' proprietary plug-ins. In a worst-case scenario, you would end up with the worst of both worlds: Expensive tools that don't work well together. Who would want that?
So, when you read the next news release, or quotes from some big-wig in some industry trade rag, prick up your ears, but pay attention to what they're saying behind what they're saying. It's all about money, my friends, and anyone who tells you different is selling you something. (I'm selling you something too, but I'll get to that later. And at least I'm up front about it! ;-)
Here's an example of what I mean. This so-called article (News.com) touts Eclipse as "the center of innovation in the Java tools industry", and one VP, who shall remain nameless to avoid embarrassment, said "'It's over,' ... referring to competition in the Java tools industry." Umm, excuse me, we're the competition and it's not over.
An interesting discussion arose over the article at Javalobby. Graham Lea comments, "Firstly, would anyone really say something is a 'center of innovation in the Java tools industry' without being paid to say it, or at the very least given a script? ... Secondly, what's all this hullabaloo about a 'platform'? I want to cut code fast and easily and I don't really care if the IDE is built on a flexible platform or not - it makes no difference to my use of the IDE."
The News.com article goes on to glorify the Eclipse members and all but bad-mouth Sun (who is not an Eclipse member). This is not about developers at all, this is a PR war. Who's behind it? Tim Boudreau, a developer of Sun's NetBeans, has his theory, and writes "A good rule of thumb for this sort of thing might be, never believe anything you read about developer tools that isn't written by someone who develops software for a living."
And that's what it all boils down to: Developers. Hype doesn't help developers write code. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Eclipse is all hype. I'm saying that at the end of the day, developers need the best IDE for the job, regardless of the hype. Eclipse, as a plug-in platform, is a great opportunity for vendors, but it's not an IDE. Eclipse, the free and open Java IDE, still lags behind IntelliJ IDEA and will probably continue to do so, in my opinion. Eclipse tries to be everything for everybody. IDEA only tries to be the best, most intelligent, most usable Java/J2EE IDE. Anyone who's a professional Java developer, serious about productivity, should try both IDEA and Eclipse and choose the best IDE for the job (and of course, personal preference).
Finally, to put this hype in perspective once and for all, Graham Lea again writes, "the current form of IDEs exists only because of the paradigm shift IDEA started about 4 years ago. It's only a matter of time before someone releases something that blows our minds again, and then Eclipse will just be the free old-school editor that only that 30-something guy in the corner uses (ala. emacs today)."
Rob Harwood
Software Developer
JetBrains, Inc.
http://www.jetbrains.com
"Develop with pleasure!"
posted by Rob Harwood at 12:09 PM
27 Comments:
Ha ha ha ha! Bravo! Well said! The BS machine has been well in motion for a while ... the house of cards cannot last forever (well, maybe he can, so long as IBM keeps FUNDING that house of cards) ...
I like IDEA much more then Eclipse, the only problem is that my boss still thinks that Visual Studio is the best IDE over the world... That is noone listen developers and they need something to develop with... Have you ever hear c# is better because Visual Studio is better IDE? I'm sorry but even with Reshurper it's pathetic (didn't try R# 1.5 yet).
Sincerely,
Dmitry
P.S. Hope in a time IRIDA comes my boss buy me a license...
Dmitry,
The ReSharper team feels your pain, and they're working on an IDE as well. No details yet, but it promises to bring the features of IDEA to the C# world. There is hope!
I've always thought that you guys have an enourmous advantage in building IDEA, because you actually control what's under you (as opposed to Eclipse JDT, which has to live with loads of suboptimal stuff from the platform).
That said, I actually think that Eclipse is much nicer for basic Java development. Note that I am a mouser and an ex-Smalltalker. Comparing naked Eclipse with IDEA is disingenious, otherwise we can start comparing how easy it is to write RCP applications with the IDEA plugin framework.
Have fun competing; you have a good idea, but in the long run, Eclipse is going to eat your lunch.
...a good IDE, not idea, that is, darn.
I'm not comparing naked Eclipse with IDEA, I'm comparing free and open Eclipse (which may include free and open plugins).
I personally think usability and intelligence will win out over dis-integrated 'features'. That's where IDEA leads and will continue to lead. I don't think the free and open Eclipse IDE can make up that gap. It will require dedicated development from proprietary vendors, and their plugins won't be cheap.
I no longer fear Eclipse (as a competitor to IDEA; I respect and admire Eclipse, the open source project). At one time I was worried, but after I noticed a huge 200% increase in traffic to our site, I'm starting to re-evaluate the true momentum (which exists), and the wishful-thinking hype surrounding Eclipse.
To paraphrase your own recommendation, I would say: "Never trust someone who bashes a free product that happens to compete with the tool his company is selling".
Way to be objective.
NO matter how good IDEA is, you're still stuck with the clumsy and limited Java language!
Anonymous1:
Who said anything about being objective? I'm of course biased, and I make that plain in my post. And I do not 'bash' Eclipse. I bash the Eclipse hype.
Anonymous2:
If you think IDEA is limited by Java, it's clear you haven't used IDEA. Try it. It's free for 30 days.
Fundamentally I agree that IDEA is a superior product. I certainly raise a stink when I am required to give it up for Eclipse (or, heaven forfend, JBuilder) for a particular task.
My point is that the larger Eclipse community will win out over time. It is simply a matter of numbers. Now as to how long that time is, I expect it to be a while yet, and that assumes a static model. More likely than not is that something fundamental will change in IDEA or Eclipse that would make their improvement slopes converge.
To illustrate why I think Eclipse has time on its side (barring a change), consider KDE or Gnome v. the Windows desktop. Microsoft had the superior desktop for quite a while, but KDE and Gnome have been steadily catching up and now it is Microsoft with the dowdy desktop.
This does not mean the end of the Microsoft desktop; it means the environment in which they compete has changed, forcing them to improve more quickly than before.
And I don't want to leave the impression of a whiner. I value IDEA immensely as a developer; it is far and away the best took for the job when I code Java.
I'm sure Ruby or Python support is just around the corner. :-)
I do not think "Eclipse will win out" necessarily, just because of the large community size. Eclipse development (as opposed to Eclipse usage) requires specialized skills, more than those required to write plugins for IDEA, as you need to learn SWT and the Eclipse platform, as well as the IDE conventions required to write a plugin for either IDEA or Eclipse.
Sure, there are a lot of Eclipse users out there, but it is not clear how many are committed to the degree that someone paying for a product has to be.
Simple example: I want a very simple command line plugin to generate a project and put it in the workspace. My eclipse skills are not up to this task, while I did get it working with IDEA via the XML files IDEA uses. I have never managed to get enough help from the Eclipse community to get this simple build tool working. No reason, of course, why they should, but this means that the barrier to entry (must know eclipse classes) is not small.
This has a real consequence - one of my clients rarely uses Eclipse. Those who want to use ant or idea at that client can get to work right away with the hundred and fifty projects we generate nightly on our build server.
The takeaway lesson is not that plugin development is hard - we knew that. The lesson is that because such tasks are not straightforward, Eclipse users, like IDEA users, must depend on a few very skilled people to write the tools that really work. Put another way, it matters not how many users Eclipse has, it matters how many masterclass plugin authors it has.
Scott
Rob,
First, I think you have the perspective of Eclipse all wrong. Let me be up front and say that I've been using Eclipse for a couple of years now, and have been "trying" (painfully) to use IDEA for the past couple of months. There are a couple of nice things in IDEA, but I am far more productive with Eclipse. I don't know why to be honest. I have tried to make sense of it, maybe I need more time. I figure a couple of months should be enough and yet I am struggling with IDEA.
At any rate, in my opinion the plugin approach is a far better approach for software development. You gain a number of advantages to making the entire application out of plugins. Remote developer is far easier to manage by breaking pieces of the app into plugins and giving different teams sets of plugins to work on. You don't need to worry about other developers plugins most of the time (of course, core plugins are always a worry, but that doesn't change even in non-plugin based applications). Development time is much faster due to not having to build tons of code on any regular basis and due to the way the plugin system in Eclipse works, you generally don't have to worry about 90% of the plugins throughout the system breaking when you "integrate" your plugins with the rest of the applicatino. Compiling is of course much faster with small bits of code, although modern IDEs do aid in that department by only compiling changes on the fly. Updating software for most types of applications becomes a breeze and bug fixes can generally go out faster based on plugin updates. Maintenance is much easier as plugins are usually smaller pieces of the bigger pie, and thus easier to understand what it's doing. I can't tell you how much this last one is a life saver. It's a nightmare having to read someone else's code and jump all over the code all the time! Drives me nuts when I am jumping from one class/package to another, to another trying to figure out the flow. Yes, documentation may help in this case somewhat, but not usually.
But more so, the issue you say about the proprietary plugins not being integrated... what are you talking about? Yeah, you are probably right that joe shmoe isn't going to write an add-on plugin to extend a proprietary plugin that costs money. The waste of time... assuming someone must buy this plugin before your free plugin can be used would be stupid. But, the integration of proprietary plugins making use of the facilities of the framework that users of Eclipse become familiar with is totally different. Thus far I have seen VERY good integration of both free/open-source AND commercial plugins. As someone replies to you, it sounds like since you work for IDEA you are sort of slamming an otherwise awesome capability that Eclipse provides that IDEA doesnt.
I have had this argument with an old friend, a big time believer in "closed" APIs with minimal extending capabilities. I preach the plugin approach, she disagrees to an extent. Fine to have a dynamically loaded interface implementation. But forget it allowing plugins to be flexible enough to "open up" your application a bit. In most cases, allowing your commercial application to be extended for free or otherwise can shine more light on the product, and word of mouth is some of the best channels to sell through.
Now, I will agree with you that Eclipse is not the center of innovation and I see more and more IDEA features being added to Eclipse. However your claim that IDEA is far ahead is sadly very wrong. Having used both IDE's for a while now (yeah, 2 months isnt a long time, but I've figured out most of what I do in Eclipse in that time), I can tell you that Eclipse is better than IDEA in many ways and the opposite holds too. Eclipse has the best CVS integration I've seen. It is very easy to setup and get working. Eclipse has about on par ant support, slightly lagging but cathing up on junit support (although I havent used junit in IDEA). The editors, well, personally I prefer Eclipse. I dislike this roam anywhere type of editing that IDEA supports, that is just my personal preference.
Let's be fair. IDEA has plugin support too. I think what you need to do is try building some plugins for both platforms and find out which is easeir/faster. Let's rule against the SWT issue, I dislike that too ;) The eclipse plugin mechanism is super easy to work with and is extremely flexible and powerful. Their tools make it really easy too, but even manually done its a breeze to write plugins and take advantage fo the 100's of plugin extension points to do just about anything you need with the IDE/platform. I have never seen any other platform offer such a powerfuly yet easy to develop for api.
Anywho, I can appreciate your desire to bash Eclipse what with Borland, IDEA and others taking a major hit because this IDE within two years came out of nowhere and surpassed everyone and hasn't slowed down. I feel bad for those that depend on the income their products bring. Maybe they should look to offer their best features as commercial plugins to the Eclipse platform.
I find this thread quite interesting, actually. The reason I said that Eclipse is going to eat your lunch is exactly that there are just enormous resources stacked up against you. 300'000 consultant are right now whispering "WSAD, Eclipse, Websphere" in people's bosses ears.
The point is not wether Eclipse is worse than IDEA, but that it is at most slightly worse than IDEA. To win, IDEA would have to blow your socks off in comparison. (let me check, yup, they're still on;-)
> I personally think usability ... will win
> out over dis-integrated 'features'.
And exactly this is the reason, why IDEA will need hard work, because the usability is significantly decreasing in the last year(s).
Well I think integration, direction, and innovation is where IDEA can own.
Whereas OS projects are a potpurri of sources, and gives many developers freedom and choice, close source gives you a better sense that a product will work.
Microsoft and others know this. Look at the client market. Who uses windows? Alot of people. Why? Marketing, and product vision.
Look at the server market. It is fragmented. Linux, Solaris, Windows, and others have a share.
So in a way, Eclipse VS. Idea is equal to OS vs CS.
It will come down to resources. If you have lots of money but not enough time, then you will go with the fastest solution. CS seem to take advantage of this.
But, if you have lots of time but not enough money, OS will win. To do anything with OS, lots of time is required.
However, OS can compete with CS with the use of consultants/contracters that can help others use OS technologies.
So as long as IDEA is relevant, up to date, and solid, it will sell. Otherwise it will become a niche market.
Oh, bollocks! Eclipse Platform is a couple of guys sitting in Ottawa, Canada; Eclipse JDT is two groups of guys sitting in France and Switzerland. They are all employed by IBM and tightly directed by their project leads. Putting your code under an open source license and project managment are NOT mutually exclusive!
If IDEA is any better than Eclipse JDT, it's because the developers made it so, NOT because of the development model. I for one have a lot of respect for anyone doing a decent IDE (even if it's in Swing ;-).
I have been using WSAD for a couple of years and now use RAD 6. I have also been using IDEA since version 3.
Personally I think IDEA is much better than the IBM toolset esp. when it comes to coding productivity. With features such as Analyze Dependencies, Ony the fly code auditing and much better refactoring & search (which respects JSP as well not just java code) it truly shines.
I could go on about how great it really is but the best way is to try and use the tool for some real work (I would recommend following the tooltips). Dont try to use it for half an hour and look for comparable features to RAD or eclipse but use it for a real project for some time and you'll know why they say "Develop with Pleasure!"
Eclipse hype - totally agree
Eclipse will never be integrated? - um you need to read up about EMF and realize what is being done there. You have nothing comparable going on in your product. Your version of integration is Larry Ellison's too: the first order primate version: buy everything from one vendor :). Here's my reaction :@).
On features, I'm starting to think they both suck in their own ways. Does IDEA have really excellent JSF support? Does it have an MDA story? I could make a list of things that need to come in the next couple years and the thought that a little company like JetBrains is going to do it all is just silly.
I do agree the the plugins on eclipse are mostly detritus right now. I don't agree that later it will be expensive and unintegrated. There will be a ton of free things. If even a little of TPTP and BIRT etc materialize, you guys are toasted and fried.
Anonymous,
You should do your research before you jump to conclusions. Actually, we have two products on the horizon.
MPS will absolutely blow MDA/EMF out of the water. Both of those are based on the old paradigm of programming, like the epicycles of Ptolemaic astronomy. MPS is based on a new paradigm that is gaining momentum.
Fabrique will give JSF a run for its money, and may even incorporate JSF itself.
Yes, all this "from a little company like JetBrains". You know, after the great reviews we've been getting from ReSharper and Omea, you really shouldn't be surprised! :-)
As a thirty-something developer who has already been using eclipse for a number of years, I agree that IDEA is a better Java editor. But I believe eclipse is a better IDE largely because of its superior support for team development (by which I mean sharing launchers, sharing the definition of project dependencies, and so on, not support for version control) and its open platform nature. Many teams (not just big ones, but teams of 6+ developers) are developing their own small tools and utilities that support their development process and adding them to their Integrated Development Environment. The lack of a well-documented, well supported plugin architecture means that, for IDEA users, IDE=editor.
The kind of productivity gains you can make by sharing launchers and adding your own team-specific tools far outweigh the gains from the slightly more polished code completion and slightly more comprehensive refactoring tools you get with IDEA.
Paul,
It's clear to me you haven't seriously tried using IDEA in a team environment. IDEA's support for sharing project and module settings is excellent. It has several additional features for sharing other settings as well. All of IDEA's configuration files are simply XML files, whereas Eclipse has some proprietary binary configuration for projects/workspaces.
As for writing plug-ins, I admit that Eclipse is more open in that sense. We are actively working on improving our Open API, as well as documenting it. IDEA 5.0 will have a much richer Open API than the current 4.5 version, including our new Language API which will allow people to write plug-ins for their favourite languages to get support for syntax highlighting, usage search, and some refactorings. We're already using the Language API to support Javascript editing.
All in all, I strongly disagree with your assessment about overall productivity. Of course, I'm inherently biased as an employee, but that's actually my real opinion. For now we'll just have to settle with opinions. I will soon be working on developing a more comprehensive comparison with Eclipse.
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